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Faking it
<< Back to Gun fitting and shooting archives James
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:59 am
So you buy a Krieghoff, you look like you know what you're doing, the guys around you think you know what you're doing (because you've got a Krieghoff!) now for gods sake don't miss!
....... But sometimes I do, I know when I'm going to have a good shoot before I leave the house, just as I also know when I'm not in the slot. I'm not AA, I dont put in 90's (sporting) but I should be in the mid 80's and fingers crossed later 80's.
With the wealth of experience in the Krieghoff ranks, I would be interested in a Krieghoff masterclass. Sporting Targets ran 'Hull masterclass' days with (variously) Carl Bloxham, John Dunne, Kevin Mayor, Stuart Clarke (does anyone else think he looks like George Clooney?) and Mickey Rouse - the format was ok, groups receiving general guidance ... any ideas?
The best help with my shooting came from Chris Batha, over the course of maybe I year I spent no more than three hours with him and each time I had eureka moments .... to be honest I need a tune up (understatement) and am looking for more eureka moments ... hence the post! I want to live up to expectations!
Alan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:14 am
I like the idea of running a MasterClass in the various disciplines and it is something we thought about at the end of last season. I guess time and events caught up and passed us by on that. I would certainly look into organising a Masterclass if enough of you are interested. Let me know what you would expect such as number of targets, venue etc.
James
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:49 pm
Ideas? A quality venue - EJC has this sort of feel, but say a midlands ground.
I need a general tune up, I don't think I'm a bad shot but I see 'lesser' shots being far more consistent and so I would guess that something basic needs addressing, maybe that eureka' moment is just around the corner?
Targets? It's not neccessarily numbers of targets that matter but the guidance that will be the clincher, I think we can assume that it won't be a £30 day out so for £xx the customer wants and expects to shoot more than stand around.
The format? All levels of shooter will find this tempting, as we all have something to learn. I can guess that the A class shooter putting in 90's would probably become frustrated if grouped with a 'novice'. The novice open to advice will no doubt take alot away from such tuition and will probably get the eureka moments, possibly adding 10 maybe 15 kills. The aforementioned rising A shooter will probably gain more from addressing certain technical aspects that probably add a couple of points to their average.
The style of teaching is also important. For example - Mickey Rouse has a totally different approach to say Kevin Mayor, it depends on your existing style and your respective personalities too.
Cracking the formula to make everyone happy? I accepted a while ago that I can't do that, so trying to make it fun for the receptive ones is where it's at!
Depending on numbers and group to instructor ratio, maybe set aside a session of an hour / 90 minutes for one on one instruction. Say three instructors, groups sizes of six shooters? One or two shooters shoot / are coached for say 30 minutes one on one while the other two / four listen and learn? Swap etc etc.
Just my thoughts!
Alan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:30 am
Many thanks for the input. I see a problem with the one to one side of things as that means that the others in the group are standing around waiting. If there are only three in the group it means three hours standing for 90 minutes coaching. Not insurmountable though.
Lets have some more input from some of your shooting buddies. I think it would probably be neccessary to tour but suggestions for good venues in the Midlands would be helpful.
Million dollar question: What sum do you think would be fair? Top coaches don't come cheap and add onto that some grub, targets and clays and the total can look daunting. Give me a figure to work with, between X and X.
Great Avatar by the way.
James
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:02 am
The one to one element? What I mean was that say three to four instructors have a group of say 4 - 6, first session with x, swapping mid morning to y, third session with z. Only inn the afternoon / final session, the houror 90 mins session, the instruction goes from group to one to one with two shooting and other 2/4 watching? So group session throughout day, final sesion more concentrated on specific problems / area.
Cost? I think we would expect it to be in excess of £30. I think people would rather pay for quality as opposed to large groups, the price you pay will be higher but do'able. I would say £69-£99? If this cracks it then great! A higher element of personal tuition or eureka moments may get you to £120?
Depends also if this is a club Krieghoff event or open to all comers! Buy a Krieghoff and have access to the wealth of knowledge within the Krieghoff family? Maybe masterclasses in say DTL / Skeet / Sporting / FITASC? Run through the spring and summer, so that the next event is never that far away, something to look forward to?
Marketing opportunities abound!
Alan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:22 pm
Umm.. 3 to 4 instructors will be expensive and would require a take up of between 18 and 24 shooters on the day. When we originally looked at the costing for this kind of event, and consulted with a couple of good coaches, we came up with much higher figures than you indicate. As I recall a figure of 120 was going to be hard to achieve. This included about 200 targets and a lunch. Personally, I felt that 200 targets was too many but the coaches I spoke to said that in sporting you would soon rattle through those, 100 in the moning and 100 in the afternoon. It was opinioned that 250 would be more like it.
Now I am open to suggestion here and value any feedback from anyone who would be potentially interested in this kind of class. I need to hear from you regarding price, number of targets and suggested venues. I know we could put on a first rate show at Lakenheath, the venue for the English Open Sporting this year, as they have ample layouts and can cover the catering side very well. Pete also offered an extremely good rate for clays. Ben Husthwaite would be keen to do this with us at Lakenheath but the costs would be higher than you are thinking. Perhaps we can look at alternates but I would want it to be done to a high standard and am not really interested if we have to lower the standard to keep the cost down.
James
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:50 pm
More people need to contribute but in the abscence of other contributions, heres my thoughts!
Fair comments, I was going on what Sporting Targets charged, three instructors each time, a session with each through the day, lunch, refreshments and Sue Bontoft shoving Hull cartridges in your gun!
So my basis for costing was based on this, I would say that for a good day out £125 would be do'able.
As a participant I would be concerned about the ratio of shooters to instructor, If there are six shooters and the instructor spends five minutes talking to you, looking at you shoot, offering pointers then this is 30 minutes between go's. This means that you might learn something, then wait 30 minutes before putting it into practice again, by which time we will probably have moved on to a different stand, and the problem is different! This would make 200 /250 targets difficult to achieve.
This ratio means that with fewer instructors, less people can attend, the costs therefore are spread between fewer people and the rate inevitably rises per head.
This also means that if you add up the amout of 5 minute (for instance) sessions through the day, you have amassed a relatively short time of general instruction for say £125. The question would therefore be - Do a couple of hours one to one for the same or less cost benefit me more? I think the answer would be yes, therfore something else has to draw the customer to the day and also to want to return without the thoughts of "I could have had ...... for that money"
That is the basis of my ideas on costsand instuctor ratios!
Last edited by James on Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Alan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:53 pm
I spoke to Pete Usher at Lakenheath as he already does Skeet Master Class with Todd Bender. I asked about class sizes and costs.
The charge for tuition is $350 per student, around £195 at current rates. This does not include targets. Typically a full day with Todd will see you use 300 to 350 targets but if all are 12b then it may be only 250. Targets are charged at 16p so that is £40 for 250 and up to £56 for 350. Lunch is not included but is available on site and the menu is varied. There are four shooters per session.
Total cost including lunch would be close to £250 plus cartridges and travel but we are talking about top level tuition with a small class from probably the best in the World.
Everyone I have spoken to who has done a clinic with Todd says it was money very well spent and so it seems that should be the kind of thing we should be doing.
I agree with you though, we need more input from other shooters.
James
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:31 pm
Aaaah skeet! Well from what you have said I can see that is a different concept all together, the benefits from a session with Todd would no doubt be endless, if thats the way that the skeet masterclass would go then count me in.
My other comments are from a sporting perspective and are on past experiences. The tuition was more general and it was basically a day shooting with pointers from the AAA guys.
Applying the same principles from the Skeet proposal to sporting then yes I think a higher price for better tuition / more time / more targets would be acceptable.
For me .... I would probably be more inclined to pay the sums asked (£250) to sort out skeet in the manner outlined than I would for sporting.
Alan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:08 pm
I guess it depends on what you want. As you say, a serious shooting clinic with an expert is totally different than a day out shooting gathering crumbs from beneath the Master's table. I actually think you are right and that most shooters would rather have a cheap day out on the pretence that they were learning than apply the effort needed to really dig deep and learn to shoot better.
Mastering anything takes willpower and dedication and I don't believe many shooters have this will. All pretend that they want to learn but expect that they can do so without any work.
It would be possible to hold either kind of session but let us not pretend that both are truly Master Class.
James
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:54 pm
Is there any news on the idea of a Masterclass?
Alan
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:20 pm
Nothing further as we need more feedback before committing to a project like this. If any of your shooting associates are interested then ask them to post their views here, along with a wish list for the kind of thing they would like to see.
James
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:07 pm
OK I will post a few references to the forum. The biggest problem is apathy, in many things people do not want to stand up and be the first or to take the time to share their views, its much easier to believe that someone else will do it, someone else has more valid opinions .... I would but ....etc
Gavin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:47 am
Alan,
Days like this always catch the eye; most offer for around the £100 mark. Bidwell's days are about £120, Steve Nutbeam had a class at Wylye Valley on Saturday with about 8 shooters £85, I am sure all shot in the region of 200 targets.
Thinking of how to add value for the Krieghoff shooter, it might be helpful to have a top coach and K-80 shooter; good shots don't always make a good coach. As I have indicated many days are put on for general shooter. It might not be worth the risk of booking a day to find it's just another run of the mill open to all master class day.
In summary about £100 geared to the K-80 shooter; (depending on work commitments) I will be there.
Regards
Gavin
Alan
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:35 am
Thanks for the input Gavin. I agree on what we wantt to offer but it cannot be done for £100. The best shooter/coaches know what they are worth and charge accordingly. The only way to cover it is to either charge enough or have too big a class size. Rough costings indicate that £250 is closer to the mark but this would be a small class with plenty of targets and coaching at top level. The more feedback I get on this the closer we will be to doing something.
Kim
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:30 am
I would love to attend a Krieghoff masterclass. My shooting is at an all time high since i bought my 32" K80 Supersport, i have now gone from C class shot to AA and have only been shooting 22months!!!! I love the gun, but how do i know i am getting the best performance from it possible eg balance etc. I shoot reasonably consistent high scores but tend to nail really tricky birds and let the odd easyish bird get away???? It is these odd birds that i seem to miss that i need to address to keep competitive. I think an all day masterclass with say 200 to 250 birds with a top coach or coaches and good targets possibly lunch or refreshments dependent on paticipants would be good. I guess i would expect to pay around £275.00 to £300.00 (including birds) and would expect some good one on one tuition and a good variety of targets.
Alan
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:48 am
Thank you for that input. Clearly there is a demand for this kind of thing, the only question is cost. One thing for sure is that the higher the cost the less shooters required and the more opportunity for some one to one coaching. My thoughts are that we should give it a go with one instructor and a "class" of 4, max 5, pupils. This would be a full day and would inlcude lunch and you could expect to fire between 200 and 250 cartridges. It is possible at a cost of say 250 per head to include up to the 200 targets each. Targets over that charged separately. Venue would be Lakenheath for the first event as they have all the facilities in place. Please bear in mind that this will almost certainly need to be a week day as the ground is very busy at weekends and you would get too much interference from other shooters. Instructor to be announced and date to be decided.
Now, do I have 4 or 5 names?
Alan
Kim
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:33 pm
Hi Alan,
You can put my name down, but i would need some info on when you see this taking place as i'm busy back and forth offshore for the next couple of months and will have to see when my leave rotas will allow me to attend. But i would definately like to take part!!
Cheers, and Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gavin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:53 pm
Alan,
Interested in principle. Please advise when you have firmed up.
Regards
Gavin
Alan
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:40 pm
I will of course contact everyone who shows interest and we will arrange a convenient date. So far haven't even considered time of year but those details should be easy enought if we get four or five shooters interested. Alan
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