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Ask Alan Archive Page 4
choke constriction Ron - 22:22 07/02/1999
My K80 came with 5 factory choke tubes. I purchased an additional Kreighoff Skeet Choke. Could you tell me the measurement of each choke tube? Are they in .005 increments? I have Skeet, ICyl. Mod, IMod, Full and Super Full. What other Krieghoff chokes are available?
Thanks for your help?
Re: choke constriction Alan - 16:56 08/02/1999
Full set of factory chokes are Cylinder (00), Skeet (0), Improved Cylinder (1), Modified (2), Improved Modified (3), Full (4) and super Full (5). Bore diameter on a K-80 is kept at 18.6mm (.732") and the factory keep that pretty close. Choke tube constrictions are: Cyl 0", Skeet .003", IC .007", Mod .017", IM .027", Full .033" and S.Full .040". In my experience the tubes do not vary much from these figures. You have to remember that there are more things at work than simply the amount of constriction. In a K-80 the balance of bore size, forcing cone length, choke lead and internal profile all work together. The factory tubes tend to throw superior patterns to the fixed chokes, at least that is what my patterning has always told me, that is why I use a Screw-in choke K-80 for Trap. No other tubes are available but if you needed something between say Mod and IM you could always have an IM tube boed to .024" for example, I would then mark that tube by adding a minus sign in front of the number (-3)to show that it was less than IM.
Regards,
Alan
Ejectors - Last Word Fred Toelkes - 21:24 15/02/1999
Alan,
I purchased the strong ejector springs from Krieghoff - Ottsville and installed them according to your directions. All went well and the shells now eject a fine and proper distance. You were right about getting coil bound. The new springs were slightly too long and would not allow the gun to close. I trimmed them back in increments, about 1-1/2 coils in all until the right length was reached.
One slight change results from this: a little more closing force is reqwuired as you are now compressing stiffer springs as the ejectors retract.
Thanks again for the help.
Fred
Ejectors Alan - 08:22 16/02/1999
Fred,
You are welcome any time, Alan
New K-80 David Kaufman - 23:25 16/02/1999
About 3 weeks ago, I purchased a brand new K-80 Combo Gun. The gun was ordered w/ choke tubes and a pull / pull trigger. The receiver is S/N 26421, the single barrel is S/N 4211 and the O/U is S/N 421with a #4 barrel hanger. Upon receipt my father also ordered a brand new K-80 Combo Gun. This one was ordered w/ choke tubes and a release/pull trigger. On this gun the receiver is S/N 26542, the single barrel is S/N 542 and the O/U barrel is S/N 422 with a #5 barrel hanger. From reading all of the information contained within this discussion page, I have been lead to believe that it is very important (to at least resale value) that all of the S/N's of each gun match. Could someone shed some light on my S/N's? Additionally, it was my understanding that the #4 hanger was standard. Why would the second gun have a #5 hanger. Both of these gun where sold as "new in box". Could this not be the case?
Re: New K-80 Alan - 09:19 17/02/1999
First off let me tell you that I am based in the UK and for full information you would be best to contact Krieghoff International who I am sure can put your mind at rest, however, I am sure that everything is ok with your new guns and I will explain our numbering system, at least how we do it in the UK. Originally all our K-80s carried the full serial number on receiver, forearm iron and barrels. Extra barrels carried a suffix after the number to indicate that these were a second set of barrels. The suffix is not important and is depends on who fits the barrels, sometimes it is a "1", first set of extra barrels, sometimes it is a "2", second barrel set. Very recently, in response to customer feedback, we have changed our numbering. Instead of stamping the full number prominently on the flat of the barrels we now, usually, put a smaller abbreviated number, the last three digits of the guns full serial number. The numbers on your barrels tie up with this if you think about it. The Over/Under barrels carry the last three digits "421", whilst the single barrel carries the last three digits plus a suffix "1" to indicate that it is an extra set of barrels, "4211": Your fathers gun also is correct although this technician used a different numbering system. the single barrel carries the last three numbers of the receiver, "542" and the Over/Under barrels carry the last two numbers plus a suffix to indicate it is a sceond barrel set, "422". The difference here is that this time the barrel fitter preferred to keep both barrels with only three numbers, presumably for neatness and also preferred to label the second set "2" instead of "1" Both are correct if you think about it. I agree that a uniform system would be easier for the customer but it really doesn't matter too much because our records show how the barrels supplied with the gun were numbered. If ever you wanted to sell your K-80 a phone call to Krieghoff International would confirm that the barrels were supplied with the gun from new. If it really bothers you contact them and ask if they will give you a letter to confirm that the numbers are correct.
With regard to the barrel hangers, there is no standard this is because the K-80 is not a mass produced gun that is simply assembled, boxed and shipped. Every set of barrels shoot differently and so every K-80 and every set of barrels is shot before it leaves the factory. The tester fits the hanger that prints the pattern most closely to the desired place for the discipline for which it is intended, sometimes this will be a No3 or 4 or 5. This attention to detail is your guarantee that every K-80 will shoot straight right out of the box.
I hope that this helps, if you do want to contact Krieghoff International their email address is info@krieghoff.com, telephone 610847 5173, fax 610 847 8691. Norbert Hausseman will be able to help with both the numbering and the barrel hangers.
Barrel numbers Alan - 21:12 18/02/1999
Since my earlier reply I have spoken to Dieter Krieghoff at Krieghoff International and I mentioned your concerns about the barrel numbering. He told me that the change was originally made at the request of their many customers but is you or any Krieghoff owner would prefer to have the serial number of the receiver, stamped in full on the flat of the barrels, using the original factory style stamp set, Krieghoff International will be happy to do it for you. All you need to do is call them and they arrange it with you. 610 847 5173
IAB Gun Parts Fred Toelkes - 01:28 19/02/1999
I realize this question is not quite appropriate for this forum but I have had no luck anywhere on the Web. I have two friends in search of IAB gun parts. Do you know of a source in the U.S. or anywhere else?
Thanks,
Fred
Re: IAB Gun Parts Alan - 09:07 19/02/1999
As far as I know the IAB is no longer imported into the UK either. I am in Germany for the IWA exhibition in mid March and it may be that the manufacturer will exhibit there. If so I will see what I can find out for you.
Alan
Re: IAB Gun Parts Fred Toelkes - 01:58 20/02/1999
Thanks Alan. I'll watch for a message from you.
Fred
Re: IAB Gun Parts Alan - 23:55 16/03/1999
Just back from IWA but unable to track down IAB. They were not exhibiting and it seems no one has any information on what happened to them. Sorry I can't help.
Re: IAB Gun Parts Fred Toelkes - 19:32 17/03/1999
Thanks for your efforts. My IAB loving friend will have to make replacement springs out of old paper clips from now on.
Best, Fred
K 32 luksa - 19:28 20/02/1999
Just bought a k32 san remo two barrel set and two stocks .one skeet one trap stock. barrels are one 26"set skeet and skeet the other 30" trap gun in 99%condition. what is the blue book value on it. thanks JL
Re: K 32 Alan - 23:37 20/02/1999
Sorry but I can't help you with this one because we are based in the UK and don't have a "blue book" value, secondly, UK values are not directly comparable to values on the US market.Suggest you contact a Krieghoff Main Dealer over there.
Alan
Cleaning choked K-32 Ed Dworakowski - 02:24 23/02/1999
I have just purchased a nice K-32 with Briely thin wall
Choke tubes. This just happens to be my first departure from
fixed choke guns. I need advice in how to clean the bbls and choke tubes.
Should I clean the bbls with the tubes installed or should they first be removed?
Can I damage the threads in the barrels by using a stainless tornado or "gunsmith" brush? Briely thin walls are very thin and I am afraid of damage.
Please advise.
Thanks
Ed
Cleaning choked K-32 Alan - 09:04 23/02/1999
I always recommend cleaning screw-in choke barrels with the choke tubes in place simply because it is easier as you don't fill up the threads with dirt and powder residue that you will have to remove afterwards. Clean the bores in the normal way with the tubes in place, be sure not to force anything through the chokes. your cleaning wad should be a snug fit but not so tight that it needs force to get it through the choke constriction - this applies to fixed chokes too. I am a bit worried about your reference to a stainless steel "tornado" brush, we don't have these in the uk. It may be that these are fine but without seeing one, and knowing how hard it is, I cannot say if it is ok to use or not. If the material of the brush is too hard it will score the bores. If you can send me any information on these brushes I would be interested to see it. The hardest brush we use in the uk is a phosphor bronze or brass brush and that is plenty hard enough. Use a solvent to dissolve the powder/plastic residue and scrub thoroughly. After cleaning, remove the tubes, clean off any residue from the outside, relubricate and replace. Periodically, say once a month, remove the tubes and thoroughly clean the internal threads using a solvent and a brush, twist the brush to clean into the bottom of the threads. It goes without saying that if you drop a tube or damage the lip in any way you must not use it. Repair may be possible but you need to be 100% sure that the tube is perfect before using it again. A choke tube is not as expensive as a pair of barrels so don't take the risk.
K-32 Barrel Hangers David Garten - 21:05 11/03/1999
Are the barrel hangers on the K-32 changeable so as to raise or lower the point of impact when the bottom barrel is fired? If so, will K-80 parts work or does one need to use parts specially for the K-32?
Re: K-32 Barrel Hangers Alan - 23:46 16/03/1999
Sorry for the delay in reply - I have been in Germany since last week and only returned this evening. Yes, normally the K-32 is adjustable on the bottom barrel using hangers. K-80 hangers for fixed choke guns fit and there are nine numbered hanger sizes. Very early K-32s had a fixed front hanger that could not be changed and some models of Skeet barrel had a fixed hanger also (as did some K-80 Skeet barrels). To check if yours is fixed look at the sides of the hanger, you should see a removeable roll pin. size is 1.5mm, drive out using a 1.4mm pin punch - not bigger!. With the pin out you can tap the hanger off towards the muzzle. Use a soft drift so as not to mark up the hanger.
Cast Fred Toelkes - 19:35 17/03/1999
I have heard from a couple sources here in the States that cast on K-80's can be changed slightly by altering the inletting. I can't see how this could work without affecting the wood-to-metal fit all around. Do you have any knowledge of this process?
Fred
Re: Cast Alan - 07:56 18/03/1999
You are correct, changing the inletting at the head will inevitably alter the wood to metal fit and for this reason I do not recommend it. Having said that it is sometimes possible to make very slight adjustments to the height using this method but the only a little is possible because either the top strap or the guard will very quickly become proud of the wood, depending on whether the movement is up or down. Any chnges at all require that the stock is re-bedded at the recoil lug or you run the risk of a split stock. Bottom line? - I wouldn't do it.
Best regards,
Alan
Century 80 Fred Toelkes - 19:18 18/03/1999
Thanks for the reply on cast. Seems as if I was being peddled snake oil. Another question if you don't mind:
Recently, I have seen a K-80 offered for sale that was called a Century 80. It is all blued with some gold scroll work that appears to be plated, rather than inletted into the receiver.
I know it's not practical for you to quote values but I am interested in where this model fits into the K-80 hierarchy, i.e. higher grade than a standard but lower than a super scroll, etc.
Also, since it appears to be a commemorative model, do you know what event prompted it's production?
Best, Fred
Re: Century 80 Alan - 20:21 18/03/1999
Fred,
You have me on this one as I have absolutely no idea. If you can give me the serial number I can check out the background easily enough. Alternatively, you can contact Krieghoff International at Ottsville and ask if they know anything about it. (enquiries@krieghoff.com) If it is a gun made by the factory they will know but may also need the serial number. Your description of the gold work "plated" on the receiver bothers me as I don't believe that would have been done by the factory. A word of caution here about after market receiver enhancement - the K-80 receiver is hard and when finished is subjected to some pretty sophisticated chemical and temperature treatments, this treatment CANNOT be duplicated outside a factory enviroment no matter what you may be told. Even the factory will not consider softening a reciever and then re-hardening in order to add more engraving. It goes without saying that any K-80 that has had angraving enhancements after completion should be sent to Krieghoff international for expert appraisal. If you can get the serial number I will see what I can find out.
Alan
Re: Century 80 Fred Toelkes - 16:29 19/03/1999
Alan:
The gun in question is marked Century 80, No. 8 of 25. The serial number is 20668. The gold scroll work is not inlaid but rather applied like the art work on a Browning Gti, which to me appeared to be some sort of plating process.
Re: Century 80 Alan - 18:50 19/03/1999
Thanks for the info, I will check on the number and post the results. It will be Monday before I can come back on this.
Alan
Century 80 Alan - 09:20 23/03/1999
The Century 80 was a special series / engraving commissioned by a dealer in the Southwest United States in 1989. The series was 25 guns. The number you gave to me was a K 80 Sporting with a Skeet stock, 28" barrels, Taper Step rib, Screw in chokes, blued receiver.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Alan
Re: Century 80 Fred Toelkes - 17:33 23/03/1999
Thanks for the information. Is there any way to establish the value of such a model relative to the various grades listed in Krieghoff's catalog?
Best, Fred
Re: Century 80 Alan - 19:08 23/03/1999
Not really as the value depends on a number of things, not least the overall condition of the gun. Limited edition runs like this are usually at a premium over the standard range simply because of the scarcity. Best guide is to compare with a model of similar age with the same engraving coverage and wood grade and add a percentage. Remember that the specification of a gun usually has a grteater effect on value than the decoration. The spec has to be what someone wants.
Best regards,
alan
Re: Century 80 Fred Toelkes - 17:42 24/03/1999
Working from your information and playing a hunch, I called Southwest Shooter's Supply in Phoenix and spoke with Al Peck. They are indeed the people who commissioned this series of guns, but there was no particular event which prompted the release other than the desire to create a limited edition.
The distinguishing characteristics are: gold inlays (real gold inlays, I was dead wrong here), gold target, and upgraded wood. They sold them for about $1500 more than the standard grade. Al feels that these features would bring a premium of about $4000 if done currently.
Well, like a couple of detectives, we have run this thread to ground. Thanks again for the help.
Best, Fred
Re: Century 80 Alan - 22:08 24/03/1999
Thanks for your information which has added to what I was able to find out. It has been a pleasure "talking" to you.
Best regards,
Alan
Closing a K-32 Edmund A. Dworakowski - 19:52 24/03/1999
What would cause the opening latch to stay in right open position after the gun has been closed?
I have noticed this happening when the gun is closed gently rather than with a brisk snap.
I prefer to pamper my guns and close them gently.
Also, should the opening lever be moved to the right when closing the gun.
They told me that it shouldn't in Ottsville
Great site
Ed
Re: Closing a K-32 Alan - 22:05 24/03/1999
When you close the barrels on a Model 32 you need to bring them down on the shoulders with enough force to fully depress the little catch located on the right hand side. This catch is spring loaded and if you close the barrels too gently it needs a very strong wrist to compress this spring and release the top lever. This is true for K-80s also. Now this is not to say that you should slam the gun but you do need to close the barrels with a last minute "snap". As for holding over the top lever, that is a personal thing. For sure the gun is designed so that it is fine to close it without holding over the lever. If you close the gun very slowly and look closely at the point at which the barrel wings come under the top latch you will see that just before the gun closes the wings contact the top latch and throw it back slightly. Over a very long period this point of contact can wear a little and it is to avoid this that many K-32/K-80 owners hold over the top lever when closing the gun. The knack is very quickly acquired and becomes second nature after a few hundred shots. If you don't hold the lever across and wear does occur it can be remedied in a number of ways. Personally, I do hold my lever across and have been doing it for so long now that I don't even know I do it most of the time.
Alan
Barrell hangers for K-80 Jim - 23:12 30/03/1999
Where can I purchase barrell hanger to make my K-80 shoot a 60/40 pattern and approximately how much for said device?
Barrel hangers for K-80 Alan - 09:02 31/03/1999
Jim,
You can purchase a hanger from any Krieghoff dealer, or, if you live in the UK, I can supply you with one directly. The hanger you need will depend on what barrel type you have, Fixed Choke or Factory Screw-in. For Fixed choke barrels there are nine hanger sizes and for Screw-in chokes, six. The hangers are sized in 0.5mm increments and each hanger will alter the impact approxiamtely 75 - 90 mm at 35 metres (3 - 3.5" at 38.25 yds) The hangers are normally numbered on the front face, visible from the muzzle, if yours is not marked you need to measure it accurately with a vernier caliper between the inside of the dovetail and the inside of the barrel ring. Different barrels will shoot differently and therefore I cannot just say what number you will need but if you tell what hanger is fitted now and where it is shooting then I can suggest what should work. Remember, the hanger only changes the impact of the bottom barrel, the top barrel is fixed in relation to the rib and cannot be altered. Cost of the hangers in the UK are £37 inc VAT for fixed choke guns and £39 inc VAT for screw-in choked barrels.
Alan
Point of impact Fred Toelkes - 00:12 06/04/1999
A few years ago, a respected local trapshooter who does very well in the senior events tried a K-80 unsingle gun for several months. He later settled on Perazzi as his gun of choice. When I asked him about the Krieghoff, he said he felt the point of impact was not consistent.
More recently, on another website, I read a tirade directed against Krieghoff which, among other things, implied that they had some problem with heat treating of barrels that also resulted in a drifting point of impact.
To be sure, I am happy with my own Krieghoff guns, having both trap and sporting models, but I hate to see this information published on the internet and go unanswered. Do you know anything about the above or could you otherwise comment on Krieghoff's barrel manufacturing process, particularly heat treating.
Best, Fred
Re: Point of impact Alan - 14:17 06/04/1999
Fred,
This is the very first time that I have ever heard the complaint that the point of impact is not consistent on a K-80, in fact the fact that the point of impact NEVER varies is one of the major features of the design. On most over/under guns, the heating up of the bottom barrel causes the gun to shoot progressively higher. The free floating bottom barrel of the K-80 solves this problem as the barrel is free to expand with the heat without affecting the impact. The unsingle barrel is free to expand in exactly the same way and, having pattern tested many guns, I can assure you that the point of impact on a K-80 does not vary, I can go further and say that the point of impact is the most consistent of any gun I have ever shot. Now you may feel that I am sure to say this but in fact it was an observation that I made many years ago before I had any involvement with Krieghoff and before I shot one myself. This consistency of impact and regularity of pattern were what persuaded me to buy a Krieghoff in the first place.
As to what you have read on a website, I have not seen this myself but one thing I can say for sure is that anyone who talks about "heat treating barrels...resulted in a drifting point of impact" does not have understand how shotgun barrels are made nor of the physical influences that affect how barrels shoot. Nothing is done to a K-80 barrel during manufacture, either by way of heat treatment or anything else, that could make the point of impact "drift".
Alan
Re: Point of impact Fred Toelkes - 03:09 07/04/1999
As always, thanks fo the reply. I had to do some searching to find the reference to heat treating. It's on the discussion web at the Trapshooters.com website. Look for a thread called "RE:kolar guns information", last updated March 29.
Be forwarned, however: that website is a real hornets nest and attracts some very caustic postings.
Kolar guns have come on strong recently and have developed a loyal following. They are manufactured in Racine, Wisconsin by a company whose prior shooting related products were tube inserts for sub-gauge skeet events. At present they are only making about 200 guns/year. Their trap guns actually resemble Krieghoff in the barrel configuration. There are, however, a few Kolar fans who apparently not have similar feelings for Krieghoff.
Thanks and Regards, Fred
Custom K-80 Richard - 16:14 22/04/1999
Is it possible to have a K-80 built with custom engraving. I don't mean the very elaborate gold inlaid jobs just something simple that will not cost the earth.
Re: Custom K-80 Alan - 22:10 22/04/1999
Yes it is possible to have just about anything you want engraved on a K-80 and it can be as simple or as elaborate as you want it to be. The cost of custom engraving is based on the time it takes and so a simple engraving pattern need not be expensive. Let me have an idea of what you would like and I will be pleased to work out an approximate cost for you.
Best regards,
Alan
triggers Ken - 02:38 03/05/1999
I own a K-32 the gun has been everything I have expected and more. But I keep hearing a ping that I believe is coming from the trigger. At first I thought that it might be the trigger switching barrels but I notice the ping after my second shot. Is this something I should be concerned about? Or is it normal? I have played with the thought of having a K-80 trigger installed before I started hearing this noise. Do you think the new trigger would be a good improvement to the gun? If so how much do they cost in general? Who would you suggest install it? I have had nothing but great comments on how the K-80 trigger feels and performs. Since I am at a shoot almost every weekend I want my gun in its best operating condition. Thanks for your time.
Ken
Re: triggers Alan - 10:22 03/05/1999
Ken,
I really can't say what the "ping" might be, there are a number of things that it might be but I would need to take a look inside the action to know for sure. How old is your model 32? the serial number will tell me. Unless yours is a very old gun, serial number under 1,000, the trigger unit itself will be very similar to the K-80. The main differences in the K-80 unit are the adjustable trigger and the wider curved blade, the actual mechanics of the unit are virtually identical. There have been a number of changes to improve reliability but none that greatly affect the quality of the trigger pulls. What I am saying here is that changing the trigger may only give you a better shaped and adjustable trigger, it probably will not improve the pulls. The K-80 has undergone numerous small changes since it first came out, many of which have had the effect of improving the trigger pulls. New style heavier hammers and the new coil sear springs have made the pulls a little crisper. The new hammers cannot be fitted to a K-32, the new style sears and coil springs can be but the cost would be high.
My suggestion is to take you gun to an experienced Krieghoff gunsmith and let him take a look at the innards. You may have one or two minor problems that you do not know about.
If you can tell me in what country you live I can recommend a smith for you.
Alan
Re: triggers Ken - 02:11 04/05/1999
Alan,
I live in the United States. The K-32 serial number is 8141. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
Ken
Re: triggers Alan - 09:17 05/05/1999
Ken,
Sorry for the delay in posting this reply, I got a little busy yesterday and forgot to do it - my apologies. Your best first call is Krieghoff International at Ottsville PA (service@krieghoff.com) they will be able to advise you and/or recommend a service agent close to you. Krieghoff International have their own service facility at Ottsville and will definitely be able to solve your problem.
Best regards,
Alan
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