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Ask Alan Archive Page 11
gun weight justin - 15:07 21/04/2001
Alan, could you tell me the approximate weight of a k-20 with 30" barells. thanks for your help.
Re: gun weight Alan - 20:00 23/04/2001
Approximate weight is 7.1/2 to 7.3/4 lbs but it will vary a little depending on wood grade.
Alan
Krieghoff Classic 2001 Stefanie - 19:31 23/04/2001
Hi Alan, I just wanted to say thank you again for the great competition you have set up at Highlodge Shooting Ground this weekend. I really enjoyed it !! Good to see that the "Krieghoff family" is growing !
Re: Krieghoff Classic 2001 Alan - 19:58 23/04/2001
Hi Stefanie,
Glad you enjoyed the shoot and found the journey from Germany worthwhile. You shot well too, I see that we had four out of the top seven ladies using the K-80 - thank you for the great representation.
Alan
Wear at forend iron RickdM - 23:34 13/05/2001
Alan, your discussion area has been very helpful and has made me a much more educated consumer when it comes to Kreighoffs. Today I bought my first K-80, a used skeet model with a serial number of 21xxx. The gun came with spectacular wood, what appears to be a solid lock up (the lever is to the right), and in overall very nice condition. The one point of wear that I have noticed is between the forend iron and the receiver. When the gun is at the fully open position you can twist the barrels and get just a bit of play there. Is this something that I should be concerned about? Does it take a lot to get this tightened up?
I suspect the previous owner has added some weight in the butt, because with 28" barrels it balances right on the hinge pin with the tubes in, and feels butt-heavy without them.
Thank you,
Rick
Re: Wear at forend iron Alan - 07:40 14/05/2001
Congratulations on your first K-80. Unseen it is hard to be certain exactly what the problem is but from your description my guess would be that the barrels are not original to the gun. It is a common misconception that K-80 barrels are interchangeable without any work, they are not. Due to close manufacturing tolerances you will find that most K-80 barrels will drop onto the receiver and the gun will appear to open/close/fire as normal; from this it is assumed that the barrels must "fit". Sometimes the forearm will be too tight and the barrels are hard to open and close, sometimes the forearm is too loose with the symptoms you describe. When the gun is closed you may be able to see a small gap between the radius of the forearm iron and the radius of the receiver knuckle. It is unlikely that wear would cause this so the likelihood is that the barrels are not original. There are a number of things that can be done to cure this but please be sure you take the gun to a Krieghoff approved service centre for the work. Gunsmiths not used to working on the K-80 can easily make things worse and make it impossible to fit another set of barrels in the future. The factory do make special oversize parts for just this situation and an approved gunsmith will have access to this facility. Once the barrel fit is corrected your gun will be fine.
Re: Wear at forend iron RickdM - 15:48 14/05/2001
Alan, I am very impressed with your ability to figure this out with the little information I gave you. I went back and looked carefully at the gun and the serial number on the barrel is 14XXX vs. 21XXX on the receiver and forend iron. There is very little visible wear on the receiver knuckle, forend iron or the attachment lug on the barrel, it just appears that they have not been properly fitted together. There is a local gunsmith here in Dallas who is Kreighoff 'trained', and I would trust him for yearly maintenace, but I am thinking that I may want to have the fitting done in Ottsville. Thank you for your insights.
Rick
Subgauge barrels Paul - 00:45 22/05/2001
I own a Model 32 trap gun and recently I've noted subgauge skeet barrels for sale at very reasonable prices. As I shoot both games, I am interested in using the same gun for both (the gun is set up to shoot a 60/40 pattern). I know the barrels can be fitted to my receiver but will I need a different foreend iron and/or foreend to use the subgauge barrels?
Re: Subgauge barrels Alan - 07:02 22/05/2001
You will be able to use your existing forearm iron and wood with the sub-gauge barrels. These barrels are made to interchange with the 12b barrels and they are fitted with a centre hanger of identical external dimensions to the one on the 12b barrels. This centre hanger supports the forearm wood at the front and allows the same forearm to be used. There is a gap between the wood and barrel on either side which you would think looks terrible but in reality looks just fine. If you can obtain the barrels at a good price then go ahead as the sub-gauges are a lot of fun.
Krieghoff double rifle info wanted John - 03:51 27/05/2001
I am looking for information on accuracy on the double rifles for use in hunting. I love the feel of the double rifles but understand they are onley for use at close range for dangerious game. I would like one for use moose hunting up here in Canada. Many of the ranges moose are usually shot here are 300-500yrds. I understand that bouble rifles are made for ranges of only max 100 yrds. What is the ideal cal. to use? I like the power of the .500/.416 but don't think it has a flat enough trajectory for ranges of up to 300 yrds. Suggustions? John
Re: Krieghoff double rifle info wanted Alan - 22:23 27/05/2001
Hi John,
I would say that a double rifle is not suitable for the kind of ranges that you mention. It is not that the rifle is not accurate at that range, a double rifle barrel is as accurate as any other, the problem has to do with barrel regulation. I am sure you understand about the need to regulate both barrels of a double rifle to shoot to the same point of aim at a most used distance. This is done by "grouping" the shots into an acceptable area at a set range. At distance up to and a little beyond the regulation range both barrels will still group into an acceptable area bearing in mind the type of game being hunted. At extreme ranges the barrels will cross over with the right barrel shooting progressively left and vice versa. Once you get out to the kind of ranges you are talking about a single barrel rifle is the best tool for the job simply because you are sighting that one barrel to the scope and do not have to worry about regulating it to a companion. Likewise regarding trajectory. A calibre meant for dangerous gane at 100 yards is not the best choice for 300+ distances.
Alan
POI adjustment RickdM - 19:55 27/05/2001
Alan, I got my new gun's forend adjusted by a Kreighoff gunsmith as you suggested and had him do an overall maintenace on the gun. The gun now feels great. However being as fussy as I am I went out and tested the point of impact of the two barrels using my Briley 20 gauge tubes (which is how I plan to shoot the gun) and a benchrest at 20 yards. The upper barrel was dead on at 50/50, but the bottom barrel was about 3" high at about 60/40.
I have two questions; how do I tell which barrel hanger is currently on the gun (I can find no markings), and how much of a hanger change would I need to make to move the POI 3" at 20 yards?
Thank you again for your insights,
Rick
Re: POI adjustment Alan - 22:14 27/05/2001
Hi Rick,
First of all let me say that I am not convinced that bench rest shooting a shotgun is the best way to determine poi. A shotgun is not designed to be shot that way and there are too many things that can influence the barrel dynamics and consequently the poi. Anyway, assuming that your bottom barrel is 3" high at 20yards I would guess that one or possibly two hanger sizes should do it. You will need to pattern test to find out but as a rule of thumb each hanger size change moves impact 3 - 3.5" at around 40 yards. This may vary from gun to gun and barrel length to barrel length. When you do your pattern testing be sure to shoot the gun off the shoulder as you would in normal use. You need to put in a bigger hanger to alter impact downwards.
To determine what size you have you just measure, accurately with a vernier caliper, the distance betwen the inside of the ring and the dovetail flat. Later hangers have a number stamped on them but the early ones did not. Once you have the measurement just double it and that will give you the hanger number. For example, 3mm is No 6 and 0.5mm is No 1. Hanger sizes go up in 0.5mm steps. Remember that the hangers for fixed choke guns are different diameter from those for Factory screw-in chokes. The size and number have the same relationship but the hangers are not comparable as regards poi.
Alan
Re: POI adjustment RickdM - 00:07 28/05/2001
Thanks Alan. I share your concern about testing POI on a bench rest, so I held my gun as I normally would and simply allowed my lower hand to rest on the bench. How is it done at the factory? Surely they must use some form of rest. Once the barrels converge I will shoot off the shoulder to get the right adjustment on the adjustable comb.
One of the reasons that I bought the Kreighoff and not the Perazzi, is that I have been stuck with guns with mis-aligned POI's and wanted one that could be adjusted. I suspect that if every shooter took the time to carefully check the POI on their O/U's that most mainline gun companies would have a lot of unhappy customers. Thank goodness for the Kreighoff barrels.
Thank you,
Rick
Re: POI adjustment Alan - 10:24 28/05/2001
No problem with the way you are doing it Rick. when you mentioned bench rest I had visions of the gun clamped or rested directly on something. Supporting with your hand is fine but I would still recommend doing some standard, unsupported, pattern testing once you are satified you have the hanger number worked out.
Alan
Re: POI adjustment RickdM - 04:33 04/06/2001
Just as a follow up. A local gunsmith suggested I needed to pattern the gun in all the gauges before I messed with the barrel hanger. After a couple of hours in the hot sun on a 95 degree Dallas day I found out that the 12 gauge barrel without tubes was dead on, and the 28 and .410 tubes were within a couple of inches. It was just the 20 gauge that was between 4 and 5 inches off. It makes me feel better about the Kreighoff barrels, but now I have to go back to Briley to see what they can do about the tubes.
As an aside, is there any problem with Briley installing thin wall choke tubes on a standard skeet barrel? Is there much of a chance that they could mess up the POI (now that I have discovered that it is spot on)?
Thanks,
Rick
Re: POI adjustment Alan - 08:21 04/06/2001
That was good advice he gave you and you should always check poi without the tubes first. I assumed that you had done that already. Lesson learnt, I will be sure to mention it the next time.
As far as installing choke tubes in Skeet barrels I would not have thought it was a problem. Will it alter the poi? Well, any choke tube installing specialist I have ever talked to about this tells me that if the job is done correctly then the point of impact will be the same. Personally I have one or two reservations as I have seen some odd things happen. If you specify that choke installation must not alter the poi, before you have the job done, then I am sure you can rely on Briley to see that it comes back perfect. This would always be my advice, make sure that the person doing any work on your barrels is aware that you know the poi before the work is done and you want it back exactly the same.
Alan
value justin - 19:23 08/06/2001
Can you tell me what would be worth more second hand- a factory multichoke K-80, or a fixed that has been teague choked ?
Re: value Alan - 19:36 08/06/2001
Hi Justin,
Assuming both guns are in identical age & condition and the specification is the same apart from the chokes then there would be very little in it. Overall the factory chokes would be a little higher in value because an "original" gun is always more sought after than a conversion.
Maintenance Leo - 14:42 18/06/2001
Alan, I shoot about 20,000 rounds a year. Do I need to send my K-80 to Ottsville for service each year? Do they need the barrels? Is there an easy way to ship the gun?
Re: Maintenance Alan - 19:45 18/06/2001
Hi Leo,
The purpose of maintenance is to keep your gun in tip top condition to ensure a long life and reliability throughout the year. The gun will not simply stop working if you neglect service but regular service will find and correct anything that may cause trouble midway through the season. Personally, I always give my own K-80 a thorough check over at the beginning of the year just to make sure that everything is OK. You need to ask Norbert at KI what he exactly needs for service but I would require the complete gun including barrels. As for shipping to them I cannot advise you as I am not at all familiar with shipping regulations in the USA. Once again KI will be able to tell you the best way.
Alan
SXS shotguns ron - 13:26 21/06/2001
Alan,
While at the Southern SxS Championship in North Carolina, I met a gentleman who was shooting a Krieghoff SxS. It was the first Krieghoff SxS I had ever seen. I would love to acquire one.
Could you tell me if Krieghoff still produces a SxS shotgun? If not, when were they last producted? What gauges were avaiable? Were both sidelocks and boxlock produced? I check the used gun lists very often and I have never run across one. Any ideas? Thanks!
Re: SXS shotguns Alan - 22:42 21/06/2001
What bore was the s x s? The only gauge I have seen recently was a 20g built on the Classic s x s rifle action. I will have to check with the factory as I really don't know what they have made in the past.
Alan
Re: SXS shotguns admin - 18:43 26/06/2001
As I thought, the only side by side shotgun available now is a double 20b built on the Classic action. This action only allows for a non-ejector. It seems that Krieghoff did build double side by side shotguns in the past but mainly pre-war. The msot usual was a double 16b but some 12s may exist. Nothing is produced today other than the double 20.
Alan
Stock re-finishing Bleddyn Davies - 16:40 25/06/2001
Alan,
I have a stock and fore-end which are finished in a glossy lacquer/varnish. I would like to remove this finish and bring out the grain of the wood using a London Stock Finishing Kit.
What's the best way to remove the laquer finish, bearing in mind the chequering will need attention as well?
Thanks .. Bleddyn
Re: Stock re-finishing Alan - 08:39 26/06/2001
Hi Bleddyn,
It depends on the type of finish you have on the stock as different treatments are required. If the stock is highly polished lacquer, such as French polish it can be easily removed with a spirit solvent. Simple gloss varnish can be removed with any varmnish stripper. The hardest to remove are the tough two pack resin finishes which are similar to the two pack lacquer used in the motor body paint industry. You can soften them with varnish remover but it will take repeated attempts to get through the finish and you will have a lot of cleaning up to do afterwards. Removing the finish from the chequering can usually be done by vigorous scrubbing with a toothbrush and varnish remover. You have the same problems with the very hard lacquer but it is usually applied much more thinly on the chequering and comes out OK. In very severe cases you may need to clean up the chequering with a tool but in most cases this will not be required. The worst part of the job is the time it takes to soften and remove the original lacquer from the body of the stock.
Alan
Re: Stock re-finishing Bleddyn Davies - 14:39 26/06/2001
Thanks Alan,
I'm not sure what type of finish it is .. the Gun is a 10 year old MX-8 and it seems like varnish - it at least has that undesirable 'plastic' look to it, and therefore unnecessarily camouflaging a very nice piece of wood underneath. Is it worth trying varnish remover anyway ?
Re: Stock re-finishing admin - 18:40 26/06/2001
If the finish is original then it is almost certain to be very hard two pack lacquer. You can try to remove it with varnish stripper and it will work eventually. Trick is to only work on a small area at a time. Apply the stripper and let it soften the surface. Scrape off the soft lacquer and apply more stripper. Repeat until you get down to the wood. It will take some time.
Alan
barrel bulge mahmood sultan - 06:23 27/06/2001
dear alan
while shooting olympic trap last week i noticed a bulge in my perazzi sc3 top barrel. the gun is 2 years old and i bought it new from garlands. it is about 2" from muzzle end and about 01mm bulge which is 05mm in width on both side. from inside it appears like a ring.
i shot sofar 4 rounds with the gun using 2nd barrel about 25 times with no effect. the test pattern of the barrel is also seems to be ok.
i have entered in a competetion overseas next week. is it ok if i continue to shoot with this barrel.
i have only this trap gun.
replacement barrel will only be available in mid august in uk.
is this bulge repair able?
your expert advise and comments are anxiously awaited.
regards.
mahmood sultan
karachi, pakistan
Re: barrel bulge Alan - 08:55 27/06/2001
Without seeing the barrel it is not possible for me to provide a positive statement as to safety or otherwise. All barrels have a degree of elasticity in the steel. What this means in simple terms is that the barrel expands or stretches slightly during the passage of the shot and wad up the bore. The elasticity in the steel allows the barrel to return to original dimensions after the load has exited the barrel. This is normal but if the pressure at any point increases to the point that the steel is stetched beyond a certain limit then the barrel will not return to original dimension and what you see is a bulge in this area. This elastic nature of the steel is a kind of safety margin but once it has been stretched beyond its limit it has lost this margin. If the pressure in the barrel peaks again at this point it will probably burst the barrel.
It is hard to say what caused your bulge but from your description it sounds like the classic "ring bulge" just behind the choke and this is usually caused by some obstruction to the passage of the wad up the bore. In your case the bulge is just behind the choke and my best guess would be oil left in the bore after cleaning. There could be many other causes such as water droplets or even a fine spiders web across the muzzle. The smallest thing can cause the wad to just check momentarily with the resultant pressure build up behind it.
I cannot advise that the gun is safe to shoot, even though pressure is relatively low up at the muzzle. If you should blow off the end of the barrel the risk is to other shooters or spectators nearby. If the bulge were in my gun I would not shoot it.
Repair is possible but if the bulge is completely around the barrel then the repairer needs to be able to separate the barrels to put down the portion of bulge between them. This is not always possible or practical to do and depends on how the barrels are joined. Repair will entail reproof to ensure that the barrel has not been weakened in this area
barrel safety mahmood sultan - 05:54 03/07/2001
dear alan
i was fealing uneasy using the gun with the slight bulge on practice. a gunsmith advised and i after protecting myself behind a steal plate fired 25 cartridges of 32 gms load in rapid succession using both barrels. no noticeable effect on the size / shape of the bulge was observed.
now i am practicing with the gun using normal 24 gm load.
my question is , do you agree with this kind of improvised pressure test while no proper one available.
what is the pressure difference developed in barrels between 24 and 36 gm load.
regards
mahmood sultan
Re: barrel safety Alan - 19:50 03/07/2001
The test you have performed is completly meaningless as you cannot duplicate a proof safety test using normally loaded cartridges. The load used has no bearing on this as a proof test is made with a cartridge designed to generate pressures considerably greater that than those developed by standard load cartridges. To prove safety the barrel has to be stressed beyond what would be obtained in normal service, it is this that proves that the barrel will not burst in use. Your test comes nowhere near those pressures. Once again, I strongly urge you not to shoot any gun with a bulged barrel as you are endangering other shooters and bystanders.
shotgun stocks patrick - 12:57 11/07/2001
Hi Alan,
I have read with interest your comments regarding stocks for the various disciplines and logic agrees with your view that specialist disciplines require specialist stocks (ie get the right screwdriver for the job). However, I tend to think that if a stock has been fitted properly to you so you shoot where you look and you have a gun such as a Krieghoff or Kolar which allow you to change point of impact with the bottom barrel while keeping the same sighting picture then this same stock should be able to be successfully used for multi- disciplines. What is it that I'm missing about the differences for stocks for gun up and gun down disciplines? Don't some of the top English sporting shots use trap stocks eg:George Digweed?
Thanks for your time and the great site.
Regards Pat.
Re: shotgun stocks Alan - 16:06 11/07/2001
Hi Pat,
The theory is sound, that is, if you have a gun fitted to shoot where you look then you should be able to shoot any type of target. There is one serious flaw in your logic regarding the stance adopted for the different disciplines. A Trapshooter will normally stand with his weight well forward, gun pre-mounted and head pushed down firmly on the comb. This is entirely diffeent from a Sporting shot who will stand erect, evenly balanced with his head up, bringing the gun up to his face. These two different styles will require at least a different comb height and probably the cast will need attention. Head down, possibly turned into the comb needs different dimensions that head up shooting. Having said this there is some truth in saying that a properly fitted Trap gun can be shot succesfully at Sporting but the user may need to get used to seeing more rib than he would like. This is assuming that a pad can be found that incorporates the non-slip requirement of Trap and the ultra-slick surface demanded by most Sporting shooters. There is a difference between a Trap stock fitted for Sporting and a Trap stock set up for Trap. Both are Trap stocks but the dimensions may be completely different. Changing the impact point of the bottom barrel does not make a Sporter into a Trap gun. My personal experience is that a Trap stock can be succesfully shot at Sporting but a Sporting stock simply does not work for Trap. Mainly due to the rake and profile of the comb but there are other dimensions such as drop at heel which make the job difficult. It is best if you buy a gun stocked for the discipline you will shoot but if you intend to shoot any Trap at all then you really should get a Trap gun.
New Gun? howells34 - 19:04 13/07/2001
I have shot DTL with my current gun (a B2G Trap)for about 8 years. I am averaging scores around the 290 mark but not getting scores in the high 290's as I use to do 3 years ago. Do I change my gun for something like a Krieghoff or modify my own gun - adjustable comb and heel plate plus some recoil reducing device. (as my shoulder has started to ache in the mornings) Or am I clutching at straws and would be better off spending money on some coaching.
Re: New Gun? Alan - 21:22 13/07/2001
If your scores are consistently in the 290s then there is not a lot wrong with your current gun and I would look in other areas for the problem. Speaking personally, for example, I have recently discovered that my eyes tire during the day and I have difficulty in focusing. This is the result of too many hours sat in front of a PC and driving long distances. Since I discovered this I have made serious efforts to protect and rest my eyes and my scores have climbed quite dramatically.
It may also be worth looking at your style and stock fit as a bad style will gradually pull your scores down.
Recoil is another problem and I am not sure I would recommend spending a lot of money on tricking out your current gun. You are not likely to be satisfied with the result and you will not recover the cost if you decide to sell. In fact you will probably get less for the B2G that you will in original condition. If you really feel that the gun no longer suits you then bite the bullet and change. I am not going to say that a K-80 will automatically raise your scores as there will be a learning curve but I can guarantee that you will notice a marked reduction in recoil.
Briley service RickdM - 22:28 22/07/2001
Alan, I just wanted to folow up on my K-80 which had a tube set in which the 20 gauge tubes shot 5" apart at 20 yards. I sent it back to Briley, and even though the set is about ten years old and I was not the original buyer, they corrected the problem at no charge (they installed choke tubes in both tubes). I checked the adjusted tubes out this weekend and they are within 2" of each other, what I would consider to be an acceptable tolerance. They also installed choke tubes in my standard weight skeet barrel. It was an impressive bit of machining and both barrels shoot to the same point of impact, same as before the choke tubes. Overall I am very impressed with the work they do. Thank you for your suggestions.
Regards,
Rick
Who make Krieghoff's barrels? Ron - 23:14 03/08/2001
Several weeks ago, a friend, that runs a gunshop here in the United States, made a trip to Germany to visit the Merkel factory. After returning home, he announces that "Merkel makes the barrels for Krieghoff". Is this true? Being a novice at shotgunning, I just assumed that the entire gun was built at the Krieghoff factory. Can you tell me about the manufacturing process?
Thanks, Ron
Re: Who make Krieghoff's barrels? Alan - 14:07 08/08/2001
Hi Ron, sorry for the tardy reply but I have been involved in staging a big shoot over here and am only now catching up on my work. Like many stories what you have heard contains a grain of truth. First of all let me assure you that Krieghoff make their own barrels at the factory in Ulm, Germany. The unfinished tubes are sourced outside the factory from one of only four maunufacturers hammer forging barrel tubes in Germany. The tubes are made to exact Krieghoff specification and are supplied to Krieghoff in the rough forged unfinished state. Making the tubes and the monobloc into a barrel set, along with rib fitting and internal boring and external finishing is all carried out at the factory in Ulm. This is not uncommon as it makes sound economic sense to have such items produced by a specialist maker who can recover the machinery investment by the volume of barrel tubes forged. In my opinion the specialist volume manufacture of the tubes combined with the hand building into completed barrel sets produces barrels of the highest possible quality, much better than could be achieved by small scale labour intensive production from steel billet to finished barrel.
Alan
Re: Who make Krieghoff's barrels? Geoff Ross - 00:48 10/08/2001
I find it interesting that this would come up as a surprise. Major gun manufacturers have for a long time relied on outsourcing barrels to barrel makers. The American Parker shotguns had many of their barrels made in Belgium. Other makers had barrels made in Germany and Italy. The late american manufacturer Hatfield had barrels made in Italy for their line of SXS guns. This is not that unusual.
Years ago while touring the Remington Plant in Ilion NY I had the opportunity to watch shotgun barrels being produced on their automated machinery. The tour guide explained that the barrels being produced were destined to be installed on Mossberg shotguns. Mossberg is Remington's chief competitor in the Pump gun market!
Kind of like our "American" cars with German Engines, Japanese Transmissions and Chinese radios.
Sorry for the long dissertation. thank you for hosting this board and putting up with us Yanks!
Geoff Ross
Re: Who make Krieghoff's barrels? Alan - 08:11 10/08/2001
You are correct and I can add that a few years back, Krieghoff made some 16g barrels destined for Parker guns also. There is a lot of co-operation between manufacturers and always has been.
Thanks for your input and I can promise you that far from "putting up with" you I am always pleased to receive questions from your side of the ocean - you ask some interesting questions!
Alan
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