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Ask Alan Archive Page 13
fanfire John Wise - 14:15 21/01/2002
Alan,
Thanks for a great website. I am having a problem with my K80 fanfiring while shooting the .410 tubes in the 12 gauge barrel. I have not had this happen with any other gauge (12, 20 or 28)and it doesn't happen very often (about once in 200 firings).I have recently went to a new adj. comb stock with a Kick-eez pad and was wondering if the extra recoil relief of this pad could be causing the problem as I didn't have this happen with the old stock and pad (Pachmayr decelator). I have shot this gun about 7 years and this is the only problem I've had with it. Any Ideas? Thanks, John.
Re: fanfire Alan - 15:31 21/01/2002
As you will know, the K-80 has a mechanically selecting single trigger. The instant you fire the first barrel it selects the second and does not need the recoil to do so. Fan firing is prevented by the inertia block travelling rearwards and blocking the trigger. With the .410 there is so little recoil that the block perhaps does not always have much energy to send it back. I think it unlikely that the change of pad will have tipped the balance but it is just about possible. My guess would be that it is more to do with the stock length. When you changed stocks did you change the length of pull? Even a small amount could do it. Check this first. If there is no difference then I suggest you have some minor adjustment made to the trigger selection speed. Norbert Hausseman at Krieghoff International will be able to advise you. Tel 610 847 5173. Norbert will be able to make some small changes that will not spoil the trigegr in any way but should solve your problem.
Alan
Miroku / Browning Barrel interchangeability. Derek Leetham - 19:01 11/02/2002
My friend Doug Seagrave owns a Miroku 6000 27 inch skeet gun but likes to do a bit of DTL / Ball Trap etc.
He spends several months in the year on holiday and doesn't like dragging two guns with him.
He has come upon a set of Browning 325 invecta plus barrels for sale at a fair price.
He has dropped them on to his action and they almost fit. the top lever doesn't drop across very far.
Is this a non starter or what would the cost be to get the barrels made to fit.
We both know that for DTL etc his adaption would not be perfect but it would save a lot of hassle and give more pleasure to his endless holidays.
Please ask if more info required.
Derek
Re: Miroku / Browning Barrel interchangeability. Alan - 08:36 12/02/2002
I would not say this is a non-starter but I cannot advise on the barrel fit without seeing the gun and barrels. The fact that the new barrels drop onto the action and the top lever almost goes across does not really mean much. The most important area is the fit between hinge pin and breech face. I would be happier if you said that the barrels drop on the action but will not close because they are too tight on the breech face. You need to take the gun to someone who understands barrel fit. He will check if the barrels are tight up onto the breech face and then look at other areas such as the forearm knuckle. The top lever not going across is no problem so long as the barrels fit or can be made to fit everywhere else. Please note that barrels often seem to interchange but it is very rare to see two guns whose barrels interchange and fit both guns perfectly.
You are also quite correct when you say this is not the perfect solution and my recommendation would be to save the money the new barrels and fitting will cost and put it towards changing the existing gun for something with screw-in chokes and 30" barrels. All you then need is an additional Trap stock that can be made to interchange easily and quickly and you have something very close to what you need. Instead of carrying two stocks you could look for a low Trap stock with an adjustable comb and shoot both disciplines with that. There are plenty of recoil pads suitable for both Trap and Skeet. Do not try to use a Sporting stock for DTL though as it just does not work. This solution would be lighter than carrying the extra barrel set.
Re-finishing gunstocks Con - 03:59 12/03/2002
Dear Alan, I am currently re finishing a U/O stock using a mixture of raw linseed oil (100 mls) + 25 mls turps. This seems to go on well and dries Ok, but after 5 coats, I am not getting a semi gloss or gloss look, like you see on many oiled guns. How many coats of oil would be needed to achieve such look? Is my recipe Ok or should I adjust the amount of oil / turps ? Any tips would be great. Thanks
Con
Re: Re-finishing gunstocks Alan - 08:22 15/03/2002
I am sorry for the delay in reply but have been in Germany at the IWA show and have some catching up to do. Regarding your stock finish, you will not achieve a gloss using linseed oil and turps. It is possible to obtain a quite shiny finish using linseed oil alone but I would not recommend it. An oil finish is intended to completely seal the surface and to make the stock waterproof but the finish is in the surface not on it. At the end of the process the stock should appear perfectly flat and smooth with a satin sheen. If you have a gloss it is because you have let oil dry on the surface of the stock. The finish will probably look patchy and will pick up dirt and dust. Over time the oil will darken and look pretty bad. If you want a gloss finish then I suggest that you use one of the stock finishing kits designed to achieve this, either that or get the stock lacquered.
Assuming you want to continue with the oil and will accept a satin finish then you need to do as follows.
Using your mixture of oil and turps rub well into the stock until the wood is the desired colour and seems like it will not take any more. Cut any dried or excess oil off the surface using fine, 000, steel wool. Leave the stock to dry for at least a week. Now switch to boiled linseed oil, buy commercially prepared do not try to boil your own. Rub this oil into the surface of the stock very sparingly and buff with the palm of your hand until the stock is dry. Repeat this process for as long as it takes to completely fill every pore in the wood grain. This can be between one and three months depeding on the density of your stock. Summer is better than Winter as the oil struggles to dry if the temperature is cold with high humidity. The final top surface should be rubbed down with rottenstone mixed with linseed oil. Try to keep the boiled linseed out of your checkering but some seepage around the border is probably unavoidable. This will need cleaning up with a checkering cutter.
Boiled linseed oil dries like varnish and this is necessary to fill the wood grain. Letting it dry on the surface is to be avoided. Raw linseed is often mixed with turps to help it penetrate deeply into the wood. Your mix is about right for this purpose. Please note that 5 coats has not even started the job and it will take many more than this to achieve the finish you want. There are a number of kits on the market which shorten the time and acceptable results can be obtained using one of these. An oil finsh will still take some time if you want a perfect job.
How to Service the action of a shotgun Anil - 04:38 31/03/2002
How often should the action/trigger mechanism of an inertia operated Over & Under shotgun be serviced?
Please give detailed instructions as to how exactly this
should be carried out and what type of oil and/or grease should be used.
Thanks,
Anil
Re: How to Service the action of a shotgun Alan - 08:26 31/03/2002
Frequency of Service depends to a large extent on how much the gun is used and the conditions it is used under. A gun that shoots 50,000 rounds a year is going to need service more often than one that shoots 5,000. Likewise is your climate is very wet or very dusty then frequent service is called for to prevent damage by water or air-born grit particles. As a general rule I would advise an annual basic service and a full service if anything detrimental is found. In any event a competition gun should have a full service every two years to ensure reliability. If you are a very heavy user or shoot in a wet or dusty climate then an annual service is essential.
I cannot give you precise instruction on how to do your own Service as I strongly advise against this. Contrary to what many believe gunsmithing is a skilled trade and a service involves much more than removing the stock and squirting some oil here and slapping a bit of grease there. Be realistic, I cannot possibly put down here in a few sentences what it takes a gunsmith years of training and experience to learn. If you do not know what you are doing and this means anyone who is not an experienced gunsmith, messing with the mechanism of a gun is potentially dangerous.
Trigger - Free-play Anil - 04:50 31/03/2002
Dear Allan,
I have a few technical questions pertaining to the action/trigger of my gun. In our country we do not have a competent gunsmith who is familiar with Over & under shotguns and inertia operated actions.
My gun is a Browning Trap B 425.
(Subsequently a Brilley choke system and an adjustable comb were installed. The conversion was done in Australia.)
Q1. When the gun is cocked, there is about 1.5 mm. free-play on the trigger. Is this normal? If not, can it be reduced by making a simple adjustment? How is it done?
Q2. After the first shot is fired, the trigger must be FULLY released in order for the gun to get cocked for the second shot. Sometimes the second shot does not go off unless I 're- release' the trigger and pull it for the second time.
Is there any relationship between the amount of free-play on the trigger (when the gun is cocked) and the distance the trigger must travel forward, for the gun to get clocked?
Q3. The gun was imported from England, brand new. Approx. 4 000 rounds have been fired to date. Are there any parts which may have to be replaced (in the near future) due to wear, especially moving parts connected to the working of the trigger assembly. My intention is to get these parts down and keep them in stock, just in case.
Thank you.
Anil.
Re: Trigger - Free-play Alan - 08:47 31/03/2002
Taking your questions in order:
1) Some free play in inertia operated trigger systems is normal and essential to function. The inertia block is thrown to the rear by recoil and then returns to drop under the second sear. If there is no free play it will not be able to drop under the sear and you will not be able to fire the second barrel. The amount of play can be minimised but the smaller you make the gap the more likely it is that you will have problems. On this type of gun the sear does not always cock in exactly the same place and some tolerance is required to allow for a tiny variation in the sear position. I will not tell you how to reduce the gap as if you do not know already you are not qualified to do the work. Messing with sears is dangerous!
2)On all single trigger guns you must release the trigger fully for the selection of the second barrel to take place. This is absolutely normal. The amount of weight remaining on the trigger at changeover varies depending on the type of mechanism. Some guns, such as your Browning, will require almost all weight taking off the trigger before it will select. Other guns will select when you are still exerting 3 or 4 ozs. If you have to release a second time it is because you did not fully let go the first time.
3) There is no relationship between free play and the distance the trigger has to move forward to select, except that if you have inadequate free play the trigger will not select and it seems as if you have not released it.
4)It is impossible to say. I would proably want to keep a pair of firing pins and mainsprings but other part failures cannot really be predicted. You should be able to manage a sprong change but the firing pins need attention to ensure they are not too long or too short.
As I have said before I do not endorse owner service. If you do not have a gunsmith then that is a problem but you cannot learn to do this work via email.
Lead shot numbers Ash - 23:04 02/04/2002
What are the average numbers of lead shot in 7,8 and 9 cartridges
Re: Lead shot numbers Alan - 09:07 03/04/2002
An apparently simple question but I need some more information otherwise the answer will take some space. What shot load are you enquiring about, that is what weight of shot. As shot sizes vary from country to country, and even within country as here in the UK, I need to know the actual pellet diamter. For example shot size 8 in the UK is 2.2mm but imported cartridges are more usually 2.3mm being the European size. US sizes are much closer to European. As a rough guide 28gms (close to 1oz) of shot size 2.4mm (English #7) will hold approximately 340 pellets.
jacob pappas - 06:56 03/04/2002
Does Krieghoff makes Barrels especially disign for
the Olympic Trap.
thank you
jacob pappas
Re: Alan - 09:10 03/04/2002
Krieghoff make a number of barrels all of which are consistent for weight within type. What are you looking for in a barrel for Olympic Trap? Every shooter has their own preference, if you can explain what you require I can advise which profile would suit you the best.
K-32 vs. K-80 barrels Rick del Monte - 18:37 11/04/2002
Alan, I have a K-80 with 28" barrels which I bought for American skeet. Once you have a Kreighoff you start wanting to shoot it for everything, so I have been using this gun for sporting clays. It has done well, but I have wanted to purchase a set of 30" barrels for this sport. As I look at prices I notice that the used K-32 barrels are considerably cheaper than the used K-80 ones. I assume that I can use the K-32 barrels without a problem, but is there something else I need to watch out for? I have heard that the K-32 monobloc is not case hardened and can gall more easily. Anything else like that?
Thank you,
Rick
Re: K-32 vs. K-80 barrels Alan - 19:48 11/04/2002
I know what you mean and I use my screw choked Trap K-80 for just about everything. The short answer to your question Yes, you can fit Model 32 barrels to the K-80 and vice-versa but there are a few points to consider. Model 32 barrels will almost always come with an 8mm parallel rib, later barrels may have a parallel 12mm rib. Chokes will almost certainly be fixed as original and any screw choke will be an aftermarket conversion. The ejectors on the Model 32 are smaller in section and held in place with a screw. these ejectors are more prone to breakage than the new heavier K-80 style. You may have some dimensional problems when it comes to fitting. I have fitted many Model 32 barrels to K-80s and I can tell you it is not always straightforward. It is almost always possible but may entail more work than you originally budgeted for. My advice is to get the barrels checked professionally against your receiver before parting with any money and even then they need to be reasonably priced as you need some cash in hand for the possible extra work in fitting etc. The Model 32 monobloc can gall but so can the K-80 if not kept clean and lubricated. This is true of any gun and the only reason you see Model 32s with deep score marks in the sides of the monobloc is age and poor maintenance.
Re: K-32 vs. K-80 barrels Rick del Monte - 04:58 12/04/2002
Thank you Alan. I actually have come to prefer the 8mm rib over the wider ribs that I had on my Berreta and Browning, but the fit issues are definitely a concern. I believe the 8mm rib does not come with the adjustable choke tubes even on the K-80 barrels, so I would have to send it to Briley anyway. I will just have to be patient until the right set of barrels comes onto the market.
Thanks,
Rick
recoil pad Mark Crowder - 10:03 02/05/2002
Alan,
I have read all of your responses and am truly impressed by your knowledge. I have waited all day trying to get someone to answer me without charging me 30 bucks. I'm sure this is the dumbests question you have ever had the privilage to receive. I have a Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon Sporting. I bought a new recoil pad that Beretta makes becase the original is somewhat tacky and hangs onto my vest sometimes. I didn't want to paint that liquid stuff on my gun. Besides, I heard it starts to crack after a while. My question is how do I remove the original pad? I can't find a manual that will tell me if I need a screwdriver or allen key and what size. I was also wondering if it is glued on as well because the edges will not seperate from the stock. The gun is only a few months old and I don't want to strip anything.
Well, now that the dumb question is out of the way, I have a couple of legitimate queries. This is my first new shotgun. I have always been into pistol competition until my brother decided to start busting clay because he has to be better and bought a Silver II. I tried the quality sporting guns in my price bracket and this gun seems to fit perfect. There is a man that does a procedure for a company called Angleporting. Instead of the barrels being ported straight, they are done at an angleto allow the pressure to escape easier. The kick doesn't bother me but I would like to reduce the muzzle jump a bit. Especially after I started making my own shell which have a little more charge due to the fact that I'm a little slow. Upon request the number one barrel ports are extentende about 3 inches.
He also lengthens forcing cones and does backboring. I am considering the forcing cones. He lengthens them 3 inches. I really only want them done 2 1/2 but he's supposed to be the best in the business. What is your opinion on the backboring. I really don't think you could tell if you get a litlle deformation in your shot. As for backboring shortening the shot string, I'm not sure if that is a good idea. Seems to me like I would have a better chance of a hit with a longer string especially on crossing patterns. What do you think?
I was considering backboring to shave some weight when I hone my skills a little more and install some ultralight conversion tubes and can shoot a smaller gague. Will the Briley tubes still fit after machining the bore?
One more thing.. My gun is chambered for 2 3/4 and 3" shells. If I lengthen the forcing cones will it hold 3 1/2" magnums for goose hunting. I was told it would but you can shove a lot of different sizes in a barrels but it doesn't mean it's safe.
Thank you for your time. I hope to actually see a Kieghoff someday and maybe even test one. That is the first gun I think I've seen that compares to the beauty of a Purdey.
By the way, I really could use a way to keep my safety glasses from fogging. I've tried nearly everything.
Thanks again!!
Mark
Re: recoil pad Alan - 13:20 06/05/2002
Sorry for the delay in this reply, as I said earlier, I have been pretty busy the last few days. A number of questions which I will answer in the order you have asked them.
I do not know how your Beretta pad is removed. I know how to get the pads they fix here off the stock but I cannot say for certain how yours may be fixed. There is one gel-filled pad that is fitted on the Beretta guns we get here in the UK that has a spring clip at the toe end. You need to release this clip and the pad comes off. Another type fitted by Beretta has tiny pin holes in the pas through which you can push a well greased cross head driver. My suggestion would be to stretch the face of the pad with your fingers and see if you can locate any type of pin hole or slit in the area you would expect the screws to be. If so put some grease on a cross head driver and push it though the hole. If you cannot find anything then look around the toe area for a clip or access hole for a clip. If you can find nothing at all then there is a possibility that it is glued on but I think this unlikely on an original pad. You could always call Beretta USA and ask them.
Porting can reduce muzzle flip if you are finding this a problem. Your comment about "making my own shells which have a little more charge due to the fact that I'm a little slow" frightens me to death. With that belief you are an accident waiting to happen and I would not recommend you do anything to weaken your barrel. This includes lengthening the forcing cones and back-boring which both remove metal. If you are going to stoke up your shells then you need all the strength in the gun you can get. Stoking up the shells will not compensate for any slowness on your part; all you are doing is increasing recoil and muzzle jump.
A short shot string will deliver more pellets "on-target" and this is an advantage. Long shot strings will not help your shooting as the pellets lagging behind will be deformed and low on energy. Long forcing cones and back boring can improve patterns and lower recoil but make sure you get the work done by an expert who can determine the wall thickness of your gun before starting work. Only have the work done if you are going to use standard pressure shells.
You will still be able to fit insert tubes as they are normally made to fit your bore diameter anyway. Some types that are made with nylon plugs to fit a range of bore sizes may not fit but it depends on the bore size you end up with.
Lengthening the forcing cones will not allow you to shoot 3.1/2" shells. They may actually go in but it will definitely not be safe to shoot.
Glasses fogging is a problem. Make sure that the glasses are not sitting too close to your face and that you have a good air flow up behind them. I have mine set high and they seldom fog. On the rare time they do, hot humid day with no breeze, I just pull them down my nose after shooting and push them back when I am ready to shoot again. Works for me anyway. There is supposedly a product on the USA market that prevents fogging but I do not know what it is called. I have heard it mentioned but never actually seen it. Rain-Ex make an anti-fogging solution that does work, perhaps that is the product that I keep hearing about.
Hope that takes care of your queries.
Alan
Interchanging stocks Rick del Monte - 22:59 03/05/2002
Alan, I hope you will tolerate another question in my search for shotgunning nirvana. I had enquired before about buying 30" K-32 barrels for my K-80, and you pointed out some of the problems. So I called my local dealer about the cost of a set of new barrels and came to the conclusion with him that I might be better off financialy trading my K-80 in for a new K-80 with the 30" barrels than just buying a new barrel. My current K-80 (which has a serial number of 21XXX) has a great looking stock that fits me well, and I would like to switch wood with the new gun so I can keep it. The dealer has no problem with this, but I wanted to ask you if there were any changes between the receiver profile from a gun as old as mine and the new guns which might cause problems when switching stocks? I will be sure to have a gunsmith look at the fit, but I was curious if there was anything major to worry about.
I appreciate your patience with my questions.
Thanks,
Rick
Re: Interchanging stocks Alan - 13:21 06/05/2002
Hi Rick,
Sorry for the delay in reply but I have a number of projects taking a lot of time jut at the moment. You should have no problem with the stock other than minor adjustments to the heading. Your gun is new enough for the stocks to be identical in dimensions. Whenever you change a stock it does need to be checked to ensure that it contacts in the right places as these dimensions will vary from gun to gun. This is minor work and any gunsmith familiar with stock making will be able to check it for you.
Alan
I just ruined a barrel Rick del Monte - 22:46 05/05/2002
I guess you can ignore the question below Alan. This weekend I was having a great time with the K-80, shooting bunker trap, sporting clays and finishing up with a couple of rounds of skeet using my 20 gauge tubes. When I finished the round of skeet I noticed that a choke tube was missing. After examining the gun at home I realized that I had blown out a choke tube, and bulged the 20 gauge tube with such force that I also bulged the 12 gauge barrel in the skirt area of the Briley thin wall choke tube (just behind the barrel hanger). I am happy that nobody was hurt, but it is a sick feeling to think that I just destroyed $2500 worth of shotgun barrel and matching tubes. I assume that for safety reasons this barrel cannot be repaired, even though the bulge is pretty small. I wanted a new 30" barrel anyway, but this has to be the most expensive way to go about getting one.
Regards,
Rick
Re: I just ruined a barrel Alan - 13:22 06/05/2002
I am very sorry that you have had this misfortune. A choke tube blowing out of an insert tube can damage the carrier barrel especially if it uses a thin wall choke system like Briley. It may be possible to repair this especially if it is the bottom barrel that is damaged. As the K-80 has separated barrels the biggest obstacle to repair is already removed. Normally a repair would necessitate removing the ribs to gain access to the damaged area. Bulges can be put down by a barrel expert and I have seen similar damage repaired many times. The repair was so good that the barrels passed a re-proof at our British Proof House. A top barrel repair is also possible but may involve removing the hanger mounting block if the bulge extends into that area. Here in the UK I could put you in touch with a few gunsmiths who could do this sort of repair but I do not know who to recommend in the USA. You could certainly contact Krieghoff International at Ottsville for their opinion.
Good luck I hope that you can get this repaired.
Alan
Re: I just ruined a barrel Rick del Monte - 04:21 07/05/2002
Alan, thnk you for your reply. It was the bottom barrel, and after getting over my initial depression It seems that the barrel bulge is rather small, so perhaps there is still some hope. In talking to my dealer today he suggested that I really needed to send it to Briley since they did both the subgauge tubes and aftermarket chokes on this gun. While I am working this whole mess out I am going to go ahead and have a new set of 30" barrels installed at Ottsville, which I am told they can turnaround in two days.
I shot my Monday night skeet leaugue with my backup Browning and it was not pretty. Kreighoffs have a unique weight and feel that takes a bit to get used to, but once you are used to it, it becomes very hard to go back to your old gun.
Thanks,
Rick
Re: I just ruined a barrel Alan - 07:59 07/05/2002
Glad to hear that there may be a chance of saving the barrel. I would agree that Briley are probably best placed to look at this. I have seen some quite bad bulges removed from screw choke guns so I am optimistic.
KI at Ottsville will be able to fit your new barrel very quickly so long as they have one in inventory.
I know what you mean about the K-80 - nothing else shoots quite like it.
Good luck with your repair. I would be interested to hear how it goes.
Alan
Choke changes Rick del Monte - 04:08 09/05/2002
Alan, I was with my dealer today ordering a new set of barrels for the K-80 and the dealer called Norbert to make sure that he had the new Light Modified choke in stock. Norbert was on a speaker phone (and sounded just like what I would expect the head gunsmith at a German gun company to sound like), and was explaining that they had changed the choke constrictions. He noted that in the past it was based on a metric dimension and did not work out to exactly .005" increments, but now they have been changed and are all now on even .005" increments. He seemed concerned that I might already have an old modified at .017" and then buy the new Light Modified at .015" and in essence end up with pretty much the same choke. After reading your posts about the incredible patterns that you get out of your old #2 I am sorry that I will not get to try them out.
Regards,
Rick
Re: Choke changes Alan - 15:51 09/05/2002
Good to hear you are getting sorted with the new barrels. What is the latest on the damaged barrels, are Briley able to do anything for you?
With regard to the "new" choke dimensions I don't really know what to say as I had not been informed of any change. I just measured the #2 choke in two recently delivered K-80s and they both measure 18thou. My own gun today measures 17.5 thou, close enough for me not to loose any sleep over.
I should explain how I measure the choke constriction because it may be what is causing the confusion. I push my gauge down into the bore and zero it behind the choke at bore size. I then withdraw it through the choke and note what size it goes down to before it will clear the muzzle. That measurement is then the difference between bore size and choke size which is what matters, at least as far as I am concerned. K-80 bores do not vary more than one thou (typically the variation is no more than a couple of tenths)and that is not worth worrying about. When you get yours measure it in the same way as I describe and let me know the result.
Best regards,
Alan
Good news Rick del Monte - 16:26 10/05/2002
Alan, I got good news today. I got a call from Briley. The damage to the barrel was very minor, and did not affect the screw choke threads. So they have been able to smooth it out, and with a new choke tube they feel the barrel will be as good as before. The 20 gauge tube is destroyed, and they will need to make a new one. They are not sure about the cause, it could be; a loose choke tube, bad machining on installation, a damaged choke skirt, or some combination of all. The good news is that since they are not sure about the cause they are doing all of the work at no cost to me. I must say that I continue to be impressed by the service at Briley. My dealer is Robert Paxton, and it did not hurt that he shipped the barrels for free and made calls to Briley to follow up with them. With some dealers once the gun is out of their hands any problems are between you and the manufacturer, but Robert will really go to bat for his customers.
As far as the choke tube changes, I would be doubtful if I had heard it from anybody other than Norbert. Perhaps the changes have only been made to the chokes sent to the U.S. I know Robert Paxton has a gauge like you describe, so when the barrel comes in I will have him measure the chokes so we can see what they are.
Thanks,
Rick
Re: Good news Alan - 16:41 10/05/2002
I am delighted to hear the news. That is probably a better result than you could have wished for. I frequently hear good things about Briley also and it is good to hear of the service you received from Robert Paxton.
Thank you for sharing the news.
Alan
My new barrel is in. Rick del Monte - 00:45 17/05/2002
I got my gun back today with the new barrel. Robert Paxton and Keighoff in Ottsville really went out of their way to make sure that I got the gun in time for a Sporting Clays tournament that I plan to shoot this weekend.
Robert measured the chokes and barrels just as you describe Alan, and here is what we found. Bores were both .731" and very consistent, it opened up to .740" at the skirt and then all of the chokes were in perfect .005 increments after that. IC at .721", LM at .716", M at .711 and F at .696. I was impressed at the accuracy of the choke dimensions, I can tell you from personal experience that this is not the case with Berettas. Now I just need to go out with my favorite B&P 1 ounce loads to see what these really look like on the pattern plate.
Regards,
Rick
Re: My new barrel is in. Alan - 07:57 17/05/2002
Delighted to hear that you have the new barrel and that you received good service. I am sure that you will be delighted with the patterns.
Alan
Forcing cones Rick del Monte - 01:50 25/05/2002
Alan, I wonder if you would be kind enough to offer some non-Kreighoff advice? As part of my barrel adventures I ended up with a spare set of tubed barrels which the dealer gave me a good price for. I couldn't just put gun money back in the bank, so I ended up with a Perazzi Mx-8 live bird gun, 29.5" barrels with choke tubes on the bottom and a fixed choke on the top. It is a lovely gun, but I do not think it is going to take the place of the K-80 for sporting, might be fun for Olympic trap.
The gun has tight bores (.724") and what appear to be steep forcing cones. Since I am going to send it to Briley for choke tubes I have been debating about having them extend and polish the forcing cones. I know it will never shot as soft as the Kreighoff (nothing does), but I would like to get a little closer. Do you think this is worth doing? Have you seen this make a difference?
Thank you for your advice,
Rick
Re: Forcing cones Alan - 20:56 27/05/2002
Hi Rick, sorry for the delay - been away at out Krieghoff DTL Championship all weekend. Great shoot! Here is my opinion for what it is worth. Lengthening forcing cones will normally reduce recoil but I do not think it is a cure all and you need to look at other factors that contribute to recoil. Tight bores will also increase recoil and it may be that you need to look at that in conjunction with the forcing cone work. You need to consider that either will almost certainly invalidate the manufacturers warranty and so it might be best to check with them first.
Re: Forcing cones Rick del Monte - 02:10 28/05/2002
In this day and age I know how manufacturers are about messing aroung with their bores. However Perazzi is one of the favorites among American trap shooters and I don't think there is a top trap shooter with a Perazzi that has not had his barrel completely reworked, something you don't often see with the Kreighoff shooters.
I hope you had fun this weekend, I was looking at an old issue of Clay Shooting magazine and there you were holding a specially engraved Kreighoff for the Kreighoff Cup. It was interesting putting a face to a voice. I hope the winner enjoys his prize.
Thanks,
Rick
Precision Stock and effect on balance Ade Parish - 17:27 05/06/2002
Alan
I have been desperatly searching for an article you wrote for your column in the shooting press. It was relating to weight distribution and how for a premounted gun it mattered not if the point of balance was in front or behind the hinge pin. I use a Precision Stock and think they are the best thing since sliced bread so I have just obtained one for my wifes perazzi. In trying to set it up for her I was told by a gun fitter that the stock was far to heavy and she would not be able to shoot it well until I sorted out the balance. She does find the gun heavier now but I assume that to be an added bonus in reducing recoil. I have read other Trap Coaches articles relating to balance and most have said stock heavy is to be avoided. I would be grateful for your comments.
Ade
Re: Precision Stock and effect on balance Alan - 14:04 07/06/2002
Hi Ade,
Sorry to have taken a day or to to get to this but I am a little snowed under with work. I haven't looked for the article as I can't remember when it appeared but I can remember what I said.
I maintain that for a pre-mounted gun the actual point of balance is of little consequence. When you mount the gun the weight is carried by the body frame which forms an inverted triangle over the leading foot. Gun rotation takes place over this point. The only thing that matters is the amount of weight outside the triangle; that is in front of the hand holding the forearm. Long heavy barrels taking more effort to turn around the pivot than short ones. The actual weight of the stock is supported and does not play any part once the gun is mounted. My illustration was that if you had a door in the side of your stock and someone opened this door and added weight, whilst you had the gun mounted, you would not be able to tell what was added and it would have zero influence on the gun handling. The situation for gun down shooting is enirely different as the balance of the gun has some influence on the act of gun mount.
There is simply no logic in the argument that you cannot shoot a gun with a heavy stock well at Trap. Stock weight simply cannot influence the handling of a pre-mounted Trap gun as it is not in the correct position to be able to do so.
The overall weight of the gun may be an issue for some shooters who will find the repeated lifting of the weight tiring but this can be overcome with a little weight training. I assume that you have removed the screw-in weight from the Precision Fit Stock? It is still heavy and that is the reason I do not normally recommend them to shooters whose discipline demands gun down position. Trap and skeet shooters however, like them a lot.
Re: Precision Stock and effect on balance Ade Parish - 17:51 07/06/2002
Alan thats exactly what I wanted. It made a lot of sense when I first read your article but I couldn't remember the details well enough to be convincing in the discussion. Ele will now be directed to the gym, and everyone else will be directed to this discussion group. Thanks for taking the time.
Ade Parish
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